tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post3186628717585480975..comments2023-08-29T04:10:33.716-04:00Comments on Akari Judo Blog: The Gokyo - Kodokan vs. MifuneChad Morrisonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14303352692966202149noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-79444647697033782562022-01-17T03:36:31.916-05:002022-01-17T03:36:31.916-05:00All Ways【Malaysia】All Ways】Dirty 해외 토토토토토토토토데토 토토데...All Ways【Malaysia】All Ways】Dirty 해외 토토토토토토토토데토 토토데토데토 토토데토 토토 fun88 <a href="https://viecasino.com/fun88/" rel="nofollow">fun88</a> ミスティーノ <a href="https://casinoinjapan.com/mystino/" rel="nofollow">ミスティーノ</a> 716토토랜 4-pack naija kami game - OnlineAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-39790587821569364132014-06-27T03:03:56.937-04:002014-06-27T03:03:56.937-04:00You've done your research!You've done your research!Branvinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13328305431863720237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-6292383391605260202014-02-20T14:13:40.212-05:002014-02-20T14:13:40.212-05:00Yamashita doing tsurikomi-goshi, ca. 1904 during h...Yamashita doing tsurikomi-goshi, ca. 1904 during his trip to the US.<br />http://www.library.umass.edu/spcoll/images/findingaids/muph006/muph006_08.jpgkodokanjudohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15409215580765000935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-18684642063021047262014-02-20T07:57:44.476-05:002014-02-20T07:57:44.476-05:00Basic forms of both uki-goshi and tsuri-goshi (hol...Basic forms of both uki-goshi and tsuri-goshi (holding the loincloth) had been used in sumo since ancient times, but there is evidence that a proto form of o-goshi evolved as a shino-shinto-ryu modification named koshi-nage.<br />Everything in the video makes perfect sense to me except the timeline. Instead of the 1930's, we need to go further back to the 1890's and the 1900's to see those koshi-waza modifications. Yokoyama's book Judo-Kyohan (1915) already covered those techniques in their more modern forms. It is also evident that tsuri-komi-goshi was added to the ko-gokyo at about 1900.<br />There are pictures of both Tomita and Yamoshita demonstrating tsurikomi-goshi circa 1902-1905 during their trips to the US. kodokanjudohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15409215580765000935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-48686242370889402132014-02-19T11:31:03.695-05:002014-02-19T11:31:03.695-05:00Another interesting tidbit - there seems to be mor...Another interesting tidbit - there seems to be more flux between these two gokyo in the higher kyo. the first kyo is mostly similar with just a couple of transpositions of order - but one of the major(ish) changes is the substitution of tsurigoshi for ogoshi.<br /><br />because mifune's gokyo appears to be an older form, that reminds me of Nick's lesson about the historical development of koshiwaza (apparently tsurigoshi was a more primitive form that eventually evolved into ogoshi) - i think this is the video where he talks about that topic... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0IuuiKY8XEPatrick Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04471858995477729220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-64740782412047446152014-02-13T14:14:10.237-05:002014-02-13T14:14:10.237-05:00Very good points sensei.
Kano envisioned judo as a...Very good points sensei.<br />Kano envisioned judo as a method of education based on self defense, meaning education first and physical technique second.<br />kodokanjudohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15409215580765000935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-89315090237712445072014-02-12T12:59:24.300-05:002014-02-12T12:59:24.300-05:00"So what the hell is the gokyo supposed to be..."So what the hell is the gokyo supposed to be?" Chad says a curriculum - so the order is important.<br /><br />And I tend to think that way too, although the reasoning for some of the ordering is unclear.<br /><br />but something else that might play a role - kano-san was an educator so he likely thought in terms of curriculum and scope&sequence, etc...<br /><br />mifune-san was a newspaper guy and an advertising guy and an economics guy - so he may not have thought in terms of curriculum...<br />Patrick Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04471858995477729220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-75800788299066382922014-01-25T23:49:39.371-05:002014-01-25T23:49:39.371-05:00so these throws were not in the 1895 version (alon...so these throws were not in the 1895 version (along with the # of the set they in now). So, this is changing the conversation a bit but.... of all the "new judo" these throws were the ones Kano approved of. <br /><br />Ouchi Gari, 1<br />Kosoto Gake,3<br />Hane Makikomi ,4<br />Sukui Nage, 4<br />O Guruma , 4<br />Sumi Otoshi, 5Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16413203132097922275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-21566991513874569942014-01-19T10:57:09.551-05:002014-01-19T10:57:09.551-05:00That was good thinking Chad. I feel that Kano and ...That was good thinking Chad. I feel that Kano and his top students handed down a set of techniques for us to teach and we can not go wrong if we use the gokyo.<br />BTW, the spelling that I used for Yokojama is the oldest spelling of that name that I have found. In most cases you will find Yokoyama instead, and sometimes even Yokohama (like the city). kodokanjudohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15409215580765000935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-5788634807198645992014-01-19T00:10:33.205-05:002014-01-19T00:10:33.205-05:00Re: the Gokyo - I think I've shared this story...Re: the Gokyo - I think I've shared this story before, but it captures my understanding of essence the Gokyo. Which is not much.<br /><br />I taught a "throw of the month" for the BJJ class, where, once per week, I'd take the last 15 minutes of class and teach a throw. I'd teach variants of the same throw for the whole month. <br /><br />Not knowing where to get started, I asked folks to do some standing work and looked for the biggest gaps in their game. As they didn't spend a lot of time falling, I didn't want to do anything too... big. And, given that this was a BJJ class, I didn't want them to end in a position that wasn't advantageous to groundwork. So those were my criteria: easy to fall safely, immediately useful, and easy to transition.<br /><br />My first throw, given how they were moving, was Deashi. Everyone was begging to be swept. After the each month, I reassessed. Hiza was the next most useful. Then Sasae... All in all, my first 7 throws were all in the first set. So... My guess is that similar criteria played a role in the formation of the Gokyo.<br /><br />I wonder what else...Chad Morrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303352692966202149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-35253018609499498632014-01-18T16:08:34.650-05:002014-01-18T16:08:34.650-05:00Mifune was an interesting character. He was a stud...Mifune was an interesting character. He was a student of Yokojama-sensei (7th dan), who was a bit of a loose cannon himself. There's a story about him confronting a ninja-like thief that had been stealing food nightly from the Kodokan's storage area, and after the ensuing battle, the thief never again returned. Also one story about Yokojama and a younger Mifune thrashing a dozen ruffians that were about to steal their coats and hats. Yokojama wrote a book, Judo Kyohan in 1914 but died prior to the book's publishing in 1921. By then Mifune was already a Kodokan instructor (5th dan).<br />Kano traveled a lot in those days, and while the other Kodokan instructors were happy just teaching judo as Kano wanted then to do, Mifune always stayed busy trying to create new judo techniques and other material, like his gonosen-no-kata and adding to the isutsu-no-kata (his favorite). As Kano returned from his trips, Mifune would always have new things for Kano to approve, or not, in most cases. <br />I suspect that his gokyo may have been one of those things that Kano did not approved of, instead, taking more conservative advice from his judo top instructor, Yamashita. <br />Taking nothing away from Mifune, it was Yamashita who was with Kano from the early days of the Kodokan, whom Kano awarded a Menkyo-Katen in Kyto-Ryu, Tenshin-Shinio-Ryu and was the first man promoted to ju-dan in 1937, even if it was two days after his death while Kano was away.<br />All this been said, Kano also saw Mifune's potential and promoted him to kyu-dan just prior to his own death in 1937. kodokanjudohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15409215580765000935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-25446105539666864182014-01-14T10:00:50.347-05:002014-01-14T10:00:50.347-05:00This is what I see in Mifune's gokyo:
The eigh...This is what I see in Mifune's gokyo:<br />The eight techniques that were omitted from the ko-gokyo are not in Mifune's list, meaning that his list was compiled during the last stages of the final draft of the 1934 gokyo. <br />Mifune's list may have been just that; his very own opinion on how the order of the new gokyo should be. We do not have any material from Kano's other advanced students translated to English, but I would like to have known what Nagaoka, Yamashita, Samura and the others had to say about it.<br />It may have been a simple case of this group that I mentioned won and Mifune lost in Kano's final decision. <br />kodokanjudohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15409215580765000935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-56263806442082601972014-01-13T13:46:17.268-05:002014-01-13T13:46:17.268-05:00I'm enjoying this conversation and line of tho...I'm enjoying this conversation and line of thought. I'm letting it marinate for a while before I jump in. ;-)Patrick Parkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04471858995477729220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-16509423426169478312014-01-12T17:15:17.037-05:002014-01-12T17:15:17.037-05:00... now that I think about it moving ushiro before...... now that I think about it moving ushiro before utsuri does make sense .... if your not cheating.... I'm a cheater. Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16413203132097922275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-18595989781025614502014-01-12T17:07:32.211-05:002014-01-12T17:07:32.211-05:00,Looking at the differences between kodokan and mi...<b>,Looking at the differences between kodokan and mifune</b><br /><br />These throws appear in different sets:<br />Tai Otoshi<br />Tsurikomi Goshi<br />Ogoshi<br />Seoi Nage<br />Ouchi Gari<br />Kosoto Gake<br />Uchi Mata<br />Hane Makikomi<br />Sukui Nage<br />Yoko Guruma<br />Osoto Guruma<br />Uki Waza<br />Yoko Otoshi<br />Yoko Gake<br />O Guruma<br />Sumi Gaeshi<br />Soto Makikomi <br /><br />These throws differ, and are apart by more than one set:<br />Tsuri Goshi<br />Ushiro Goshi<br />Okuriashi Barai<br />Kata Guruma<br /><br />I think i get why Tsuri Goshi is that different (see my first comment). The others, I don't get. I'd guess that since he was a little guy, he felt that Kata Guruma was more difficult. However by that logic moving Ushiro before utsuri makes no sense. Moving Okuriashi Barai to the end - after Harai Tsurikomi Ashi - is totally wack. A lot of the other differences make sense to me though. <br /><br />Maybe things in the last set are there because of multiple factors. In addition to difficulty, perhaps Mifune believed that they add the least to your judo - incrementally speaking. That is to say they do not differ from other throws as much. e.g. once you know de ashi what more is really being added to your skill set with the addition of Okuriashi. Harai Tsurikomi Ashi adds quite a bit, maybe Magical Mister Mifune didn't think it was as hard as I think it is. <br /><br />Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16413203132097922275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-4595637850429830862014-01-12T16:44:33.859-05:002014-01-12T16:44:33.859-05:00continuing my original thought... it seems like th...continuing my original thought... it seems like the order <i>is</i> important, at least in terms of the sets. the swapping of Uki Goshi and Sasae may be important, or incidental, I don't know. In looking at the first set though it appears like the throws - in concept - are diverse, and yet each is somewhat foundational (see my first comment).Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16413203132097922275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-28306260533316303202014-01-07T17:54:52.138-05:002014-01-07T17:54:52.138-05:00It might also be a good idea to compare Mifune'...It might also be a good idea to compare Mifune's gokyo to the ko-gokyo.kodokanjudohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15409215580765000935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-4081563026965615212014-01-06T16:40:12.985-05:002014-01-06T16:40:12.985-05:00BTW, I love how he tied his obi in that picture!
M...BTW, I love how he tied his obi in that picture!<br />Mifune, the rebel indeed!kodokanjudohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15409215580765000935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-55067301469988954792014-01-06T12:24:42.327-05:002014-01-06T12:24:42.327-05:00The ko-gokyo-no-waza was compiled in 1895 by Kano ...The ko-gokyo-no-waza was compiled in 1895 by Kano and his senior students. By 1920 they realized that some techniques had fallen in out of favor and other new techniques were more popular. With Kano traveling often, the new gokyo-no-waza was not formalized until 1934. We often see the 1920 date attached to the gokyo, but for those fourteen years it must have been constantly re-arranged until Kano approved it(1934).<br />It is my understanding that Mifune released most of what was to later be his book in monthly Kodokan magazine publications prior to 1930 and later compiled and published his book in Japanese in 1937 (English in 1955), the same year he was promoted to ninth dan (thus the red silk belt on the B&W pictures).<br />In other words, Mifune's book was published after the kokyo was formalized but it was compiled prior to that. This must be Mifune's own version of what he believed the gokyo should have been. kodokanjudohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15409215580765000935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-18495790821264864532014-01-05T18:24:56.611-05:002014-01-05T18:24:56.611-05:00So the biggest question I have is "what the h...So the biggest question I have is "what the hell is the Gokyo supposed to be?" The thing I am most sure of is that it is meant to be a curriculum, so the order is somewhat important. But why are things ordered the way that they are? Why did he flip-flop Uki Goshi and Sasae, for instance? ...Chad Morrisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303352692966202149noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2799814686337956402.post-48462458025434337932014-01-04T12:17:05.284-05:002014-01-04T12:17:05.284-05:00In the first set I'm seeing the basic attacks ...In the first set I'm seeing the basic attacks on:<br />How to attack the load bearing support.<br />How to attack the non-load bearing support <br />The three ways to control in koshiwaza<br />An otoshi<br />A guruma<br />And sasae, which I think is a little different as it tends to cause a throw by extending the opponent out past the center. <br />Id say that is a good foundation for that throws to come. This fits in nicely with my emerging theory on throwing concepts. Jacobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16413203132097922275noreply@blogger.com